Surprise Training Session Fail

Torque’s brain fell out this morning. 

It was an absolute classic example of something we’ve talked about before, “offering behaviors.”

When you have a dog who’s learned how to learn, who’s been rewarded for trying, when his brain falls out he tries different behaviors to make the confusion go away.

Surprise Training Session Fail - Torque tries the rings

The objective of today’s game was to put the rings on the post. We replaced the rings that come with the child’s toy with dive rings because our dogs were having trouble with the size of the original rings. The hole was a pretty precise fit, which our dogs found too difficult and caused frustration. We got the bigger, thinner rings to make it easier. 

From the first time we took the rings out, Torque rocked it. He got all six rings on the post in record time. Today’s game was just the third time he’d played with the larger rings. First time, he got all six rings on in record time. So Hope thought she’d ask him to do it again for video.

Not a single ring. Moments later, and he couldn’t figure out what to do. You can see the frustration as he grabs a ring and lies down. And knocks over the post. When he does get one ringer, he doesn’t seem to recognize what he’s done, even tossing the rings around.

When you see your dog having a meltdown – stop. This was a surprising one because, as we said, he’d just done it perfectly less than five minutes previously. For whatever reason, he was done. Hope took a minute to recognize it, but there was no punishment, no correction, no negative consequences for Torque. We just put that toy away and moved on to other things.

Our dogs can’t tell us what’s going on, we can only read their behavior and adjust our plans accordingly. Torque and Hope did some simple heeling exercises to end today’s session so that he could regain his composure and get treats for something good.

We’ve talked about how dogs can shut down when they’re worried about getting things wrong. Torque isn’t usually a shut-down kind of dog, but something put him off the game today. We can certainly speculate about what that was, but we’ll never really know. 

What we will do, next time we play our doggy version of “quoits” with Torque is go back as many steps as needed. Reward for picking up the ring, reward for carrying the ring, reward for bringing it close to the post, reward for getting it on the post. 

Or we could find that next time Torque is, once again, a rock star and knows exactly what to do and does it in record time. He’s a dog.

Balancing act for your dog

Dogs are more stable than people. It’s just physics. They have support at each corner. An advantage of having four legs over two!

It doesn’t mean that they don’t have to practice balance – it just means it’s a bit easier for them than for us. One of Fran’s passions is helping people, especially as mature adults, to avoid falls by practicing balancing. From what we’ve learned, balance is an autonomic response that weakens with age. For everyone. People who practice their balance (as simple as standing on one leg for a minute), lose less. 

We’ve seen the same effect in dogs, although we haven’t come across any studies to prove it. As our dogs age, they’re less stable when jumping, first waking up, going up stairs, etc. 

Because we want our dogs to do “stuff” throughout their lives, we take a 2-Minute Session most days to practice balance. All of our dogs play on the balance disc, from 11-year-old Tango to 18 month-old Simon.

We use an inflatable balance disc, but a couch cushion, or any soft surface that’s big enough for your dog to stand on would be fine.

The first exercise we do is just “Sit” and “Stand.” About five times. We were astonished, when we started doing this with Tango, how difficult it was for him. He’s a very “bendy” dog, but didn’t have a lot of core strength. This works the dog’s core.

Simon is walking in a circle on the balance disk.

Next we ask them to turn around on the soft surface, first one direction, then the other. We go around with them and, in this case, lure them around in a circle at first. We’re not big fans of lures, but it’s sometimes the best way to get our dogs to understand what we’re asking of them.

Then we go around some more, first with only their front legs on the disc, then with the back. Again, we go around with them and teach them to move with the lure. We did clicker-train the positions of “front legs only” and “back legs only.” Teach your dog the positions before asking them to move that way. 

When you start this, don’t rush it. Your dog may wobble quite a bit and need some time to find his/her center. As usual, reward for everything! 

If your dog is having trouble with any part of any of these exercises, don’t do many repetitions. Just like us, if it’s been a while since our dogs have used a muscle in a particular way, they may be sore the next day and need some time to recover. Don’t wait to revisit the exercise, but ease off on the intensity until your dog is moving comfortably again. Build up slowly, and if your dog is reluctant to do something, pay attention. We want them to have fun doing their balance games, which they won’t if it’s too hard or causes discomfort.

Stretch your dog out

Everything in your dog’s life is your decision. It’s a huge responsibility, and one we gladly shoulder because our dogs add so much to our lives. But everything to do with our dogs’ wellbeing is on us.

We all want the best for all of our family members – dogs included. One portion of that is seeing to their physical fitness. The training games we play keep them “on their toes” mentally. Some of those games involve physical exertion. Others are rather stationary. To make sure our dogs are “warmed up,” we do some warm-up exercises that include some basic stretches.

Every dog knows how to stretch, just like every dog knows how to sit. Getting them to do it on command takes a little training, but it’s easy for anyone familiar with training games.

Most dogs (and people!) stretch when they first wake up. When you see your dog stretching, say “good stretch!” and give him/her a treat. If your dog is accustomed to 2-Minute Training methods, he’s going to ask himself “What did I just do that got me that treat?” and he’ll try it again. It may take a few times for your dog to understand what’s being rewarded. Don’t worry about “catching” the stretch every time. Your dog stretched before he knew there was a name for it, and he’ll keep doing it whether or not you ask him.

Other stretches

The wake-up-from-a-nap stretch is an all-over, full-body stretch. There are also specific stretches to help your dog get moving. If you have an older dog, or one that may suffer from arthritis, these can be helpful as well. Pay attention to your dog – if he or she is resisting a particular movement, stop. Don’t force any movement. Our dogs have no way of telling us if something hurts – your first indicator may be resistance. The second may be a yipe of pain, which we want to avoid. Our purpose is to help our dogs keep moving. Pain isn’t any part of that.

Legs:

Before you start doing stretching exercises with your dog, take note of each joint in their legs and how they naturally move. 

Dogs’ front leg joints are called the same as our arms: shoulder, elbow, wrist. But they don’t move the same as ours. Dog shoulders aren’t designed to “spread” their arms as we can – don’t ask them to. What we can do for the shoulder is gently, while supporting the elbow, move the fore leg back and forth. Don’t go sideways – dog shoulders don’t move that way. Same with the elbow and wrist – gently move them back and forth, copying the natural movement of the joint. 

Dogs’ back leg joints, from top to floor are called hip, knee, and hock. Just the simple exercise asking your dog to “sit” alternately with “stand” will warm up the joints. You can also gently manipulate the joints, in the pattern of their natural movement, while your dog is standing still. 

Neck:

Most people don’t think about dogs needing to stretch their necks, but keeping them limber is always a good thing. Dogs don’t seem to “roll their heads” around to stretch their necks, so they need some help. Again, never force any movement on your dog. If he’s unwilling to move a certain way, try again another time, perhaps with a  lesser angle or degree of motion.

We generally don’t use “lures” to train dogs, but in this case it’s the easiest way to get your dog to stretch. While your dog is still, move a treat along from about his cheek back toward his shoulder. If you do it on both sides, it will stretch his neck to either side. To get the “up” and “down” sides, hold a treat above his head for the “up.” To get your dog to stretch his neck forward, have him stand and hold the treat between his front paws, with your finger pointing toward the dog’s head. You may have to get down on the floor to do it.

All stretched out

Of course you can make “stretches” another training game in your repertoire. Think of names you can remember for each of them, and, while you’re doing them, repeat the word with praise and treats. Hope’s French Bulldog Torque’s favorite “trick” – tapping alternately on her legs – started as front leg stretches. He loves doing it. And it makes her smile every single time.

Resource guarding is a math problem

Does your dog guard her bowl?

Resource guarding in dogs can be scary to deal with. It seems like all of a sudden your sweet, affectionate best friend is turning into a growling fiend. And it can be over something as silly as a leaf he picked up outside. Many times it’s a toy or food bowl that triggers the behavior. It can even be something as important as letting you near another family member.

Like many aggression behaviors, resource guarding is based in fear – fear that something the dog values will be taken away. And, in less-enlightened times, that’s exactly what happened. Something the dog protected would be removed and the dog punished for the behavior.

What if you added to it???

What if, instead of taking the valued “thing” away – you added to it? What if you transformed from a “threat” to a source of all good things?

If your dog “resource guards” his/her food bowl, don’t take it away. Instead, add food to the bowl and step away. If you’re not sure you’d be safe reaching in, add the food using a spoon.

Chances are, your dog will be shocked. And, perhaps the next time, won’t be quite as reactive to a presence near the bowl. It may take some time. And it may require every member of the family adding food. If you have more than one dog, we’d recommend feeding each one separately – either in a crate or in separate rooms. 

Some people may argue that we’re “rewarding” the dog for “bad” behavior by giving it more of the resource. What we’re trying to do is communicate to the dog that you, and everyone else in the family, are sources for all things wonderful. You will never hurt your dog, or deprive him of the good things in life. Instead, you’ll always be where good things come from.

We recently spoke to someone who told us their dog “guards” her when her husband comes near. It’s a small dog, so he stands on her lap and growls at the husband when he comes into the room or gets close to where she’s sitting. She’d spoken with a trainer who recommended she not allow the dog on her lap anymore.

What does that teach the dog? We think it reinforces the bad behavior, letting the dog know that the husband’s presence means he was right – he doesn’t get to hang with “mom” any more. 

Instead, we suggested that “husband” come in the room, give the dog a treat, and walk out. Repeatedly. Dog was happy to see “husband” inside 15 minutes. He became a source of good stuff, instead of punishment.

Grow your dog’s world with positive experiences

Add to your dog’s experience of good stuff. Don’t make his world smaller. Grow it with positive experiences and discoveries that good things come from good behavior.

Clarity is Key

Your dog loves you. He’s a genius at picking up your cues. Sometimes you even wonder how he knows what you want before you say it. Despite that – your dog isn’t a mind reader. If you’re not clear, your dog won’t be, either.

In our obedience classes, we often have to tell our students to “get loud!” Or “don’t ask your dog, tell her!” It’s not that anyone has to be rude, yell, or be mean to their dogs. But we do have to be clear. 

The one example that everyone seems to understand is a parent telling a child to take out the trash (or do any chore). The first time Mom asks: “Bobby, will you please take out the trash?”

The second contact is a bit more emphatic: “Susie, I asked you to take out the trash. Do it now, please.”

The third time, Mom just wants it done. “Sam, take out the trash. NOW.”

Third time is usually the charm – when Mom is using “Mom voice.” That’s what we call it and everyone understands the concept. 

We tell our students to use “Mom voice” for their dogs. It doesn’t have to be loud. But it does have to be in the form of a statement, not a question. When we’re playing training games with our dogs, we don’t want them to have questions, so we have to be clear.

If you want your dog to sit, say “Dog, Sit!” Click when the dog’s butt quickly hits the floor and reward promptly. If Dog sniffs, stands there looking at you, looks around, or takes a few steps and eventually sits – that’s not sit. That’s “ignore what I say until it suits your convenience.” Don’t reward that rude behavior!

The relationship between you and your dog is not only a loving one – it’s also one that should embody respect on both sides. You respect your dog and want to help him have the best, happiest life possible in this weird, human world. Your dog should respect you as the leader of your team.

We don’t expect our dogs to be “on duty” all the time. They are expected to obey the rules of the house like any family member: don’t pee anywhere but where you’re supposed to, get up when the alarm goes off, no fighting, no biting. Other than that, they’re like any dogs – they hang out on the furniture, chew on toys or bones, wrestle and chase each other around. 

And it’s training that lets them know what is, and is not, acceptable behavior. 

Torque holding a toy.

Torque, Hope’s French Bulldog, is crazy about certain toys. He tends to forget his manners when he plays with them. So he’s only allowed to play with them with Hope, in a controlled environment. And she’s absolutely clear when playing with him. If she says “drop,” it means she’s going to throw the toy and he’ll be able to play some more. If she says “that’s all,” it means toy time is over and he’ll get a reward for giving it up. 

She uses two different phrases so Torque knows what’s going to happen. Hope is clear in what she’s asking, so Torque knows the behavior that will get rewarded. 

That’s the deal we make with our dogs. They get what they want when we get what we want. It’s still a great bargain.

No room is no excuse

Your training space does not have to be large.
Our training space / home gym

We would love to have a big training space. The recommended size of a competition obedience ring is 40 x 50 feet. 2000 square feet. Wouldn’t that be great? It’s also bigger than our entire house. Or yard. Much bigger. 

Reality is that we generally have, at most, about a 6 x 10 foot space. Because real people have lives and furniture, and not big, open spaces to play with our dogs. The six by ten foot area stays clear because it’s also the entirety of our “home gym” – also known as the space we found to put down some kids’ snap-together play mats. 

It’s not elaborate, it’s not solely dedicated to dog training, and we don’t have a lot of fancy equipment. If your space, time, and budget are limited (whose aren’t?), you substitute thought and creativity! 

Play in a very small space!

All of the games in the 2-Minute-Trainer method can be played in a very small space. For most of them, all you need is room for you and your dog! Maybe a mat or rug. A little bowl or jar of treats.

In our competition obedience classes, we call these “kitchen exercises.” Because they’re the kind of things you can do with your dog while you’re waiting for the microwave. It’s probably where you keep the dog treats. And if you’re in the kitchen, and if your life is anything like ours, you’re already tripping over at least one dog in the room. 

Instead of staring at your food turning in circles – teach your dog to spin! Both ways! Put those couple of minutes to use giving your dog something to do and a smile for yourself. It won’t take very long, if your dog is already on board with training games. And you’ll feel like you’ve accomplished something.

Playing training games with your dog is always entertaining. But it’s also building your relationship and your dog’s understanding. As much as he loves you now, that devotion will only grow when he sees you as a partner in the fun stuff you can do together. 

Dogs love having a job. And they love making you smile and laugh. They love when you tell them they’re good, and smart, and the best puppy on the planet. And you’ll find that those couple of minutes, waiting for the leftovers to reheat in the microwave, will become one of your favorite times of the day. 

A favorite game: “Put your ‘toys’ away”

One of our favorite games with our dogs is “Put your toys away.” We don’t use anything elaborate – the “toy bin” is a kitchen wash tub. The “toys” range from actual dog toys to old plastic kitchen utensils; mixing spoons, spatulas, even a pasta fork. The dogs don’t know that they’re not “toys” and they don’t judge the value of the space they’re playing in or equipment they’re using. They just know they’re getting attention, playing games with their favorite person, and having fun.

Actually, your dog doesn’t know better

Ceilidh looks like she's feeling guilty about something.
Ceilidh looks guilty, but…

We hear it all the time. 

“My dog peed on the bed to spite me.”

“Fifi knows better – she did it because she was mad at me.”

“Phydeaux is so stubborn – he just ignores me when I tell him something.”

“Rover is so defiant. He knows he’s not supposed to do that!”

Actually – no. That’s not how dogs think. If your dog is sitting there staring at you after you’ve told her to do something, either she’s confused or she doesn’t know what you want. And, chances are, she’s afraid of making the wrong decision.

Dogs don’t think the way we do. They truly live in the moment, without comprehension of “cause and effect.” We know that, for many dogs, eating grass will result in vomiting. Dogs don’t know that. The “eating grass” is far enough removed (even if it’s minutes later) from the “vomiting” that the dog is incapable of making the connection. Even though Spot throws up EVERY SINGLE TIME he eats grass, he will never connect the two (causation) and develop a dislike of eating grass.

We humans make that connection so easily that it takes some doing to “think like a dog.” Trying to adjust your thinking, see things from your dog’s perspective, will help you communicate better with your dog.

Causation vs. correlation

Dogs learning with positive-reinforcement games are willing to try and keep trying. The worst consequences of “getting it wrong” for our dogs is lack of reward

That’s part of the difference in thinking. Dogs are good at connecting the dots – if I do good “stuff,” I get a treat, or I get to play. They excel at association, or correlation, especially if the things (behavior and reward) are close in time. Dogs see the relationship between the two events (correlation). 

It’s why the “clicker,” which is a “bridge” to the reward is such a valuable tool. It lets the dog know that, right now, I was a good doggo. Even if the reward is delayed, the dog knows it’s coming.

If, however, a dog is punished or negatively reinforced for incorrect behavior, he may develop a fear of doing the wrong thing. The consequence can be that the dog either does nothing (stares at you), or, since he can never “win,” gives up and does whatever he feels like doing (defies authority). 

It’s not easy to adjust your thinking. People are always in “if this” then “that” mode. From the time we’re infants we’re taught to think of the consequences of our actions and to plan for the future. Dogs’ brains don’t work that way.

We can learn a lot from our dogs about how to be “in the moment” and enjoy every day as it comes. It can be frustrating at times, like when you see your dog eating grass again. And it can be joyful as every single toss of the ball is as much fun as the first one.

Picture the result you want

If you can't picture the result you want, how will you get it?

If you don’t know where you’re going, how are you going to get there? 

When training your dog, picture the result that you want. Define it for yourself in your mind’s eye. See your dog doing whatever it is that you’re aiming for. Then it’s time to figure out how to get there.

Polite greeting

Let’s say that one of your dog’s most annoying habits is going nuts when the doorbell rings. It hasn’t worked to repeat “sit, sit, sit, sit, sit” at him. It hasn’t worked to grab his collar and try to wrestle him away from the door. So far, we have a picture of the problem, but not the solution.

As we’ve discussed umpteen qazillion times, dogs do what they find most rewarding. It’s fun to lose your mind and bark at the doorbell. It gets everybody paying attention to you. It amps up the noise and “fun” in the house. And, if the dog pays for it later with any sort of punishment, it doesn’t take away the fun that came before. 

That’s one of the biggest differences between dogs and people. People, even young children, understand cause and effect. Little kids get that “if I do this, I will pay for it later.” Dogs don’t.

Back in the day, people would say to “rub their dog’s nose” in housebreaking accidents. Because the accident happened an unknown time earlier, dogs didn’t understand they were being punished for producing the accident. They thought they were being punished for their owner finding the accident. So they learned to urinate and defecate where the owner wouldn’t find it. 

Think like a dog

Going back to our doorbell example – think about the classic Pavlovian experiment. Pavlov rang a bell and dogs got food. Eventually, dogs salivated when the bell rang. Classic stimulus/response conditioning. We can put it to excellent use to re-train your dog to “go to bed” when the doorbell rings.

Create the sequence in your mind: the doorbell rings, your dog runs to his bed in view of the door, your dog stays in the bed while you open the door and greet the newcomer, dog is released to a sit to say “hello.”

There’s a lot going on in that simple sequence. Each step of it has to be taught on its own before you can put it together. 

The first step is teaching the dog that the bed has value. It doesn’t matter that it’s your dog’s favorite bed. We’re asking him to do something new and different, even if the furniture is the same. Move the bed or mat to a location where he can see the door and stand there, treats in your hand. When the dog shows any interest in the bed, drop a treat into the bed. The steps for building value for sitting in the bed include:

  • Looks at the bed
  • Sniffs it
  • Puts a paw on it
  • Steps in it
  • Puts multiple paws in it
  • Sits in it

Every single one of those steps has to be rewarded at least three times before asking for the next step. And your dog has to be performing it correctly at least 80 percent of the time before you move on. We’re building a pattern of value for particular behavior, in terms your dog can understand.

Sit on it

When the dog is reliably sitting on the bed, have someone ring the doorbell. If your dog dashes off to see what’s going on, just wait. Don’t react, don’t call your dog. If you’ve built up enough value for sitting in the bed, he’ll see you standing by it and dash back to sit in the bed. When he does, reward and release!

Then do it again. Over and over. Until you’re sure that your dog understands that, when he hears the bell ring, he should go sit in the bed. 

Go overboard

Be incredibly lavish in your rewards. Give treats, praise, and pets. Doing the “right” thing has to be as much fun, as rewarding, as being “naughty” was. If you ignore your dog’s good behavior, he has no reason to do it again. Naughtiness always gets your attention. Angelic behavior deserves even more.

Laugh at your own risk

You and your dog share a connection. Dogs are particularly sensitive to our emotions – they seem to just know when we’re sick, upset, angry, or happy.  

Dogs are attuned to our emotions

They’re so attuned to us that our laughter makes them happy, too.

Simon is attuned to Fran in training.

An unforeseen consequence can show up in training. It happened recently with Simon, Fran’s 1-year-old Boston Terrier. She was teaching him to “roll over” and, when he got it right, she would giggle. Every single time. Because it was adorable. And because he’d mastered it, both ways, in very little time.

In no time flat, it became Simon’s “go to” offered behavior. Whenever he didn’t “get” what Fran was asking, he would default to “roll over.” And she laughed – every single time.

Normally, it’s not a problem to have your dog do something cute whenever you look at him. Cute tricks are one of the great joys of dog training. It’s entertaining and enriching for everybody – human and dog.

But when it matters, we really want our dogs to listen to what we’re asking them to do. We do have “freestyle” sessions where they offer behaviors, come up with new things, try anything they like, and it’s all rewarded. But when we’re working on a particular behavior or sequence, our dogs need to pay attention.

We know that Simon’s “roll over” was his way of letting us know that he was unsure. He didn’t know what Fran wanted, so he did something that always seems to make her happy. He was letting us know that he didn’t “get it.” 

Past rewards = current behavior

When your dog seems to offer random behaviors rather than “paying attention” and “doing what you want,” he’s letting you know he’s unsure. And he wants you to be happy, both with what he’s doing and with him. So he’s doing something that’s gotten him rewarded in the past.

We found that we were going a bit too fast for Simon with a behavior that has lots of steps. Every dog has his own learning pace, and we need to recognize where our dogs are in each step. And just because a dog takes a while to learn one particular piece doesn’t mean he’s slow. Another part could be “no problem, I got this!” 

Every dog has his own learning timetable

Just like people, dogs are individuals who learn differently. Hope is a terrific baker, but a so/so cook. It’s not that she’s terrible at it, just not particularly talented. She does fine with a recipe, followed step by step, but has a more difficult time improvising a good savory dish. Her brain just doesn’t work that way. Fortunately, there are lots of recipes available.

Just like the recipe for dog training success. If your dog is having a more difficult time with a particular behavior or piece of it, take a step back, reinforce what he does know, break down the next step even further. And move at your own team’s pace. There isn’t any timetable – there’s a lifetime of fun to enjoy together.

Video of Simon’s “Roll-over”

Watch quick or you’ll miss it!

All behaviors are equal

In our little morning training session today, Torque reminded Hope that all behaviors should be treated equal.

Most rewarding

Torque reminded Hope that all behaviors should be treated equally.

All dogs will, pretty reliably, do what’s most rewarding to them. They’re excellent at acting in their own best interests. Whatever got them the most valuable feedback (treats, toys, praise, pets, games) is probably what they’ll do again.

Lately, Hope and Torque have been focusing on his “bow” behavior. Mostly because he’s stuck in a “cone of shame” while his corneal ulcer heals and there are lots of things he can’t do in a cone. Also because it’s fun to teach and learn new “stuff.” And because Torque had started anticipating positions in practice, so it was time to mix it up.

One of Torque and Hope’s favorite behaviors is what the AKC calls the “Command Discrimination,” where the person asks the dog to either Sit, Stand, and Down. In the higher levels, it can be done in any order. 

When we practice, we try to mix it up so the dog actually listens, instead of just performing a learned pattern. Dogs love routine and patterns, so if you always do things in the same order, your dog will learn that and do it automatically, rather than actually paying attention. Changing the order teaches the dog to listen and watch, rather than performing a memorized routine.

Difference in a nutshell

And that, in a single sentence, is the difference between old-school dog training and the science-based, positive training we teach. We’re teaching dogs to listen, understand, learn, and act. This way our dogs know what they’re doing, can do it in any order, always have fun doing it, and love playing training games with us.

Hope found herself in a bit of a pickle. With only three commands to discriminate among, Torque had a 50 percent chance of getting the next one right, so he’d gamble and “help” Hope decide on the next call. Which resulted in him getting rewarded about half the time if his timing was spot on. He wasn’t waiting to hear what Hope asked for, he was guessing. And he’s a really good guesser.

Bowing to the inevitable

So Hope introduced the “bow” as another command to choose. It’s not part of the competition, so it’s only for practice, but it’s also really, really cute. 

It was only last week that Torque showed he understood what “bow” was – front legs flat on the ground, butt in the air. And Hope rewarded it enthusiastically. Torque and Hope were both smiling and proud of him.

So today, when Hope was playing the Command Discrimination game, Torque started “bowing” every time she opened her mouth to say anything. He was performing the behavior that, most recently, was most rewarded. Which was a perfect reminder to treat all behaviors equally – reward everything you like. Ignore what you don’t. 

More of what you want

Fran and her 1-year-old Simon have been working on the “Stand” part, both for the Command Discrimination and the Novice “Stand for Examination.” Same thing – Stand has been heavily rewarded recently, so Simon was choosing it, regardless of what Fran asked for. 

Every time we play training games with our dogs they show us what they’ve been learning. Whether or not it’s what we meant to teach them – it’s the information we need to do a better job of communicating with them.